1 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:17,910 [Music] 2 00:00:23,080 --> 00:00:20,450 hi everyone this is Martin Willis the 3 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:23,090 antique auction form a fascinating guest 4 00:00:29,589 --> 00:00:26,330 Robert K Wittman he is a retired FBI 5 00:00:32,290 --> 00:00:29,599 undercover special agent who founded the 6 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:32,300 Art Crime Team he's been responsible for 7 00:00:38,890 --> 00:00:35,930 recovering 225 million dollars worth of 8 00:00:41,110 --> 00:00:38,900 stolen art where he's posed undercover 9 00:00:43,300 --> 00:00:41,120 around the world so I have Bob on the 10 00:00:45,250 --> 00:00:43,310 line now how you doing Bob I'm great 11 00:00:47,410 --> 00:00:45,260 it's great to be here there's a lot of 12 00:00:49,630 --> 00:00:47,420 intrigue when it comes to art theft and 13 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:49,640 I've watched a couple clips we can talk 14 00:00:54,010 --> 00:00:51,890 about that later you were on The Colbert 15 00:00:56,740 --> 00:00:54,020 Report which was that was pretty 16 00:00:59,770 --> 00:00:56,750 interesting he's a great guy very very 17 00:01:02,440 --> 00:00:59,780 smart man yes we hard on that show and 18 00:01:03,929 --> 00:01:02,450 it's a great job and you know I gotta 19 00:01:07,030 --> 00:01:03,939 say he was kind of easy on you 20 00:01:09,130 --> 00:01:07,040 I've seen a few other people I think 21 00:01:11,380 --> 00:01:09,140 he's actually interested in the subject 22 00:01:12,999 --> 00:01:11,390 because after it was over usually he's 23 00:01:14,590 --> 00:01:13,009 they told me he's very quick to get up 24 00:01:17,169 --> 00:01:14,600 and go I mean he does getting around it 25 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:17,179 at all and in this situation you know he 26 00:01:20,739 --> 00:01:18,770 actually when we were finished with the 27 00:01:22,060 --> 00:01:20,749 with the taping he actually I had some 28 00:01:23,859 --> 00:01:22,070 more questions and when to talk to me 29 00:01:25,510 --> 00:01:23,869 about it wow that's that's pretty cool 30 00:01:28,330 --> 00:01:25,520 well I think he was actually interested 31 00:01:30,639 --> 00:01:28,340 in the subject himself but it's funny 32 00:01:32,139 --> 00:01:30,649 when you first go on and you're sitting 33 00:01:34,330 --> 00:01:32,149 in the greenroom he comes in to visit 34 00:01:36,669 --> 00:01:34,340 with him and it sure gets taped between 35 00:01:38,289 --> 00:01:36,679 somewhere around 6:30 and 8:30 in the 36 00:01:39,969 --> 00:01:38,299 evening that's about a two hour taping 37 00:01:42,849 --> 00:01:39,979 in an 8 they bust it all down to 30 38 00:01:44,620 --> 00:01:42,859 minutes he comes in he says this is just 39 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:44,630 first of all pieces I just want you to 40 00:01:49,059 --> 00:01:46,969 know that does is all you know it's all 41 00:01:51,940 --> 00:01:49,069 good fun and please don't take offense 42 00:01:53,349 --> 00:01:51,950 of anything and then the producers paid 43 00:01:56,789 --> 00:01:53,359 and then when you leave they tell you 44 00:02:01,359 --> 00:01:59,499 no one nothing yeah no one out there 45 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:01,369 right you don't want to get on TV and 46 00:02:06,489 --> 00:02:04,130 try to you know meet match minds which 47 00:02:08,350 --> 00:02:06,499 Stephen Colbert yeah that's right yeah 48 00:02:11,230 --> 00:02:08,360 so right off the bat I want to say most 49 00:02:13,150 --> 00:02:11,240 people's opinions are that art thieves 50 00:02:15,100 --> 00:02:13,160 are people like Pierce Brosnan Cary 51 00:02:17,199 --> 00:02:15,110 Grant and there's sort of like a 52 00:02:19,030 --> 00:02:17,209 romantic intrigue when it goes to our 53 00:02:21,190 --> 00:02:19,040 thesis what are what our thieves really 54 00:02:22,990 --> 00:02:21,200 like well you know I call those the 55 00:02:25,540 --> 00:02:23,000 oscar-winning art thieves you know they 56 00:02:26,890 --> 00:02:25,550 they have that opinion 57 00:02:29,620 --> 00:02:26,900 they're that they're handsome and 58 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:29,630 debonair and you know rich and and that 59 00:02:33,610 --> 00:02:31,250 they just did a Scalia dabble in the 60 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:33,620 arts but the truth is generally speaking 61 00:02:39,070 --> 00:02:35,570 is there's three types of people who are 62 00:02:40,540 --> 00:02:39,080 involved in art theft and it's different 63 00:02:42,220 --> 00:02:40,550 from the people who are involved and say 64 00:02:44,380 --> 00:02:42,230 fraud's forgeries and fakes it's a whole 65 00:02:46,060 --> 00:02:44,390 different type of concept but the people 66 00:02:47,830 --> 00:02:46,070 are involved in theft are either general 67 00:02:49,030 --> 00:02:47,840 criminals you know they have involved in 68 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:49,040 many different types of criminal 69 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:50,810 enterprises including armed robberies 70 00:02:54,970 --> 00:02:52,970 cars you know car theft and everything 71 00:02:56,860 --> 00:02:54,980 like that as well and they just have to 72 00:02:59,440 --> 00:02:56,870 do an art heist okay 73 00:03:02,080 --> 00:02:59,450 then you have what I call the experts 74 00:03:04,750 --> 00:03:02,090 who are people who have access to the to 75 00:03:06,550 --> 00:03:04,760 the collections and go in study 76 00:03:08,980 --> 00:03:06,560 collections and then after all either 77 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:08,990 become you know emotionally evolved 78 00:03:11,890 --> 00:03:10,610 involved with this stuff and decide 79 00:03:14,020 --> 00:03:11,900 they're going to take it or they have 80 00:03:15,820 --> 00:03:14,030 you know hours to sell it and then you 81 00:03:17,140 --> 00:03:15,830 have they're also they include dealers 82 00:03:18,640 --> 00:03:17,150 and then you also have the people who 83 00:03:22,390 --> 00:03:18,650 actually work in the museum's who are 84 00:03:24,700 --> 00:03:22,400 you know insiders and Charlie speaking 85 00:03:27,580 --> 00:03:24,710 for museums that we find that about 88 86 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:27,590 to 90 percent I say we the FBI statistic 87 00:03:32,590 --> 00:03:29,690 is between 88 and 90 percent of museum 88 00:03:36,070 --> 00:03:32,600 heist I have some insider component hmm 89 00:03:38,290 --> 00:03:36,080 Wow and are a lot of it when you say 90 00:03:40,810 --> 00:03:38,300 inside this is the way you get these 91 00:03:45,250 --> 00:03:40,820 statistics of course is by cracking the 92 00:03:48,130 --> 00:03:45,260 case and cases right and what is the 93 00:03:51,430 --> 00:03:48,140 percentage of the cases that are solved 94 00:03:54,780 --> 00:03:51,440 and the art returned well I mean it 95 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:54,790 depends well you know the general 96 00:04:00,030 --> 00:03:57,890 percentage of return stolen property is 97 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:00,040 somewhere between five and 20 percent 98 00:04:03,610 --> 00:04:02,690 okay that's for all stolen property 99 00:04:07,420 --> 00:04:03,620 we're talking about cars 100 00:04:09,010 --> 00:04:07,430 you know TVs anything five to 20 percent 101 00:04:12,190 --> 00:04:09,020 but when we talk about art Heights and 102 00:04:15,580 --> 00:04:12,200 these high value paintings it's probably 103 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:15,590 90 to 95 percent Wow and the reason for 104 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:17,810 that is because you know as we know and 105 00:04:22,390 --> 00:04:19,730 as you're those rooms probably on would 106 00:04:24,670 --> 00:04:22,400 understand art can't be chopped up like 107 00:04:26,170 --> 00:04:24,680 a car it's not like drugs that can be 108 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:26,180 cut up it's not like a car that can be 109 00:04:30,430 --> 00:04:28,370 chopped and sold for parts you know the 110 00:04:32,350 --> 00:04:30,440 art is unique within itself if anything 111 00:04:35,500 --> 00:04:32,360 happens to that art the value goes down 112 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:35,510 so therefore you know anyone who takes a 113 00:04:38,710 --> 00:04:36,770 piece has to keep it in good condition 114 00:04:40,060 --> 00:04:38,720 and has to sell it and then it becomes 115 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:40,070 when it comes back to markets when we 116 00:04:47,230 --> 00:04:43,450 get it back now does has anyone in your 117 00:04:52,150 --> 00:04:47,240 opinion has anyone ever stolen art just 118 00:04:54,490 --> 00:04:52,160 to admire it well I don't individuals 119 00:04:56,050 --> 00:04:54,500 who have stolen property and it's not 120 00:04:58,710 --> 00:04:56,060 always art and let me explain one thing 121 00:05:00,880 --> 00:04:58,720 about that when we talk about art theft 122 00:05:03,310 --> 00:05:00,890 we're not just talking about paintings 123 00:05:06,550 --> 00:05:03,320 and sculptures under the FBI 124 00:05:08,590 --> 00:05:06,560 you know definitions of the art theft 125 00:05:10,540 --> 00:05:08,600 and Art Crime Team it's cultural 126 00:05:12,100 --> 00:05:10,550 property theft it all comes together so 127 00:05:14,140 --> 00:05:12,110 we're talking on pre-columbian looted 128 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:14,150 artifacts mm-hmm material coming from 129 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:16,970 you know the Middle East Asian artifacts 130 00:05:21,910 --> 00:05:19,250 all those types of historical pieces 131 00:05:24,460 --> 00:05:21,920 even like I said us artifacts you know 132 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:24,470 from from the US history so you know a 133 00:05:27,910 --> 00:05:26,690 bill of rights or a sword from the Civil 134 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:27,920 War all these things are considered 135 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:31,130 parts of the art theft program okay so 136 00:05:34,930 --> 00:05:32,810 yeah do people steal 137 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:34,940 I have seen people steal who you know 138 00:05:39,190 --> 00:05:37,250 one of the collect items and and they 139 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:39,200 enjoy the items and they take them for 140 00:05:44,380 --> 00:05:41,570 that reason but ultimately they also 141 00:05:45,790 --> 00:05:44,390 want to sell them hmm now I you just 142 00:05:47,140 --> 00:05:45,800 mentioned the Bill of Rights I heard 143 00:05:50,470 --> 00:05:47,150 about that there was returned a few 144 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:50,480 years ago is that right yeah the Bill of 145 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:52,970 Rights was recovered in 2003 uh-huh and 146 00:05:57,700 --> 00:05:55,370 can you tell explain exactly what 147 00:06:01,090 --> 00:05:57,710 happened in that given situation well 148 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:01,100 what happened there was there was well 149 00:06:06,010 --> 00:06:03,410 in 1789 or 1787 150 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:06,020 I sometimes get it confused George 151 00:06:12,250 --> 00:06:09,770 Washington sent 13 copies had 13 copies 152 00:06:14,140 --> 00:06:12,260 actually scribed and sent to the 13 153 00:06:17,409 --> 00:06:14,150 states for ratification of the new Bill 154 00:06:19,510 --> 00:06:17,419 of Rights and most of the states kept 155 00:06:21,219 --> 00:06:19,520 them one or two return them back to 156 00:06:22,719 --> 00:06:21,229 Washington but most of the state says 157 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:22,729 you know ratified they're in camp them 158 00:06:26,980 --> 00:06:24,650 one of the states had kept theirs was 159 00:06:28,930 --> 00:06:26,990 North Carolina well it was in Raleigh in 160 00:06:30,940 --> 00:06:28,940 the Statehouse all the way through up to 161 00:06:33,100 --> 00:06:30,950 1865 during the Civil War 162 00:06:35,380 --> 00:06:33,110 that's right the in trooper actually 163 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:35,390 went to the Statehouse he was coming 164 00:06:39,430 --> 00:06:37,850 back north on a march with our Sherman's 165 00:06:42,010 --> 00:06:39,440 troops after going through Atlanta and 166 00:06:43,840 --> 00:06:42,020 as they went through North Carolina and 167 00:06:45,340 --> 00:06:43,850 to Raleigh they captured up near the 168 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:45,350 Capitol and then went in and this 169 00:06:48,310 --> 00:06:46,849 trooper took the Bill of Rights actually 170 00:06:50,230 --> 00:06:48,320 took it as a souvenir hmm 171 00:06:52,830 --> 00:06:50,240 and he went back to Indiana with it and 172 00:06:56,530 --> 00:06:52,840 sold it for $5.00 yeah 173 00:07:00,280 --> 00:06:56,540 yeah and it was kept in a family all the 174 00:07:02,410 --> 00:07:00,290 way up until 2003 when a couple of 175 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:02,420 appraisers antiques appraisers actually 176 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:04,850 found it bought it from the family and 177 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:06,410 attempted to sell it for four million 178 00:07:10,750 --> 00:07:07,850 dollars to the National Constitution 179 00:07:13,270 --> 00:07:10,760 Center in Philadelphia Wow a better they 180 00:07:15,730 --> 00:07:13,280 were a little disappointed well you know 181 00:07:17,500 --> 00:07:15,740 we identified they hadn't identified as 182 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:17,510 well they had taken it and had it looked 183 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:20,090 at by experts at the George Washington 184 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:23,090 University down in Washington DC and 185 00:07:28,300 --> 00:07:25,010 they hadn't looked at that it was the 186 00:07:33,070 --> 00:07:28,310 Congressional their-their think-tank or 187 00:07:35,050 --> 00:07:33,080 their their historical you know group 188 00:07:35,950 --> 00:07:35,060 that does for those types of an 189 00:07:38,050 --> 00:07:35,960 authentication 190 00:07:39,370 --> 00:07:38,060 anyway they had it looked at and they 191 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:39,380 they were told at the time that was 192 00:07:43,210 --> 00:07:41,570 probably North Carolina's so they 193 00:07:45,130 --> 00:07:43,220 ignored that and just kept going with it 194 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:45,140 of course it's stolen property and long 195 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:46,730 to the government the state of North 196 00:07:51,340 --> 00:07:49,490 Carolina so we we have a restaurant well 197 00:07:53,590 --> 00:07:51,350 actually had a seizure warrants from 198 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:53,600 North Carolina and undercover operation 199 00:07:57,940 --> 00:07:55,850 in Philadelphia where I posed as a 200 00:08:00,370 --> 00:07:57,950 philanthropist to buy the piece of life 201 00:08:02,650 --> 00:08:00,380 that's a patient center and when they 202 00:08:05,290 --> 00:08:02,660 delivered it you know we stopped 203 00:08:07,870 --> 00:08:05,300 everybody seized a piece and we're able 204 00:08:10,030 --> 00:08:07,880 to return to to stay off now where does 205 00:08:12,970 --> 00:08:10,040 the statute of limitations play in all 206 00:08:15,550 --> 00:08:12,980 this normal statute of limitations were 207 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:15,560 stolen property is five years mm-hmm 208 00:08:21,010 --> 00:08:18,410 so you know if someone steals an object 209 00:08:22,750 --> 00:08:21,020 and takes it after five years basically 210 00:08:26,830 --> 00:08:22,760 you can't charge that person with the 211 00:08:28,930 --> 00:08:26,840 theft you know in in a standard property 212 00:08:31,150 --> 00:08:28,940 crime mmm like that doesn't you know 213 00:08:32,530 --> 00:08:31,160 that doesn't preclude like federally and 214 00:08:35,130 --> 00:08:32,540 if someone steals a piece of property 215 00:08:37,420 --> 00:08:35,140 and they take it from say you know 216 00:08:39,820 --> 00:08:37,430 Philadelphia they go to Atlantic City to 217 00:08:42,700 --> 00:08:39,830 cross the state line at that point that 218 00:08:44,020 --> 00:08:42,710 we the statute of limitations so it's 219 00:08:45,580 --> 00:08:44,030 for another five years I guess what 220 00:08:47,350 --> 00:08:45,590 you've done is you've actually committed 221 00:08:50,260 --> 00:08:47,360 interstate transportation of stolen 222 00:08:53,710 --> 00:08:50,270 property so so how does this play and 223 00:08:55,870 --> 00:08:53,720 where the state owns well do you recover 224 00:08:58,480 --> 00:08:55,880 this piece for the state after you know 225 00:09:00,760 --> 00:08:58,490 a hundred and fifty years well that's a 226 00:09:02,620 --> 00:09:00,770 you know because there's a statute of 227 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:02,630 limitations on the prosecution of 228 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:04,850 someone who has stolen property that 229 00:09:09,220 --> 00:09:06,410 doesn't mean that you can still pay 230 00:09:10,900 --> 00:09:09,230 good title on the property I see I mean 231 00:09:12,519 --> 00:09:10,910 it's like anything else with an artwork 232 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:12,529 I mean there's three things that 233 00:09:17,439 --> 00:09:15,050 determine you know the value and the 234 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:17,449 ability to sell an artwork if that's the 235 00:09:21,309 --> 00:09:19,610 the provenance or the history of it of 236 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:21,319 course gotta be right the authenticity 237 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:24,050 again that's you know important and then 238 00:09:28,780 --> 00:09:27,050 having good title so that's why I would 239 00:09:31,809 --> 00:09:28,790 really impress this that's the touchy 240 00:09:33,340 --> 00:09:31,819 apart I think nowadays because there's 241 00:09:34,900 --> 00:09:33,350 so much litigation going on so I would 242 00:09:37,389 --> 00:09:34,910 really impress on your listeners that 243 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:37,399 they're gonna buy artwork make sure that 244 00:09:41,199 --> 00:09:39,170 they do a due diligence research on the 245 00:09:43,449 --> 00:09:41,209 title so that day's know that they can 246 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:43,459 own it and then continue to own it right 247 00:09:50,619 --> 00:09:47,050 now where where does all the Nazi stolen 248 00:09:52,929 --> 00:09:50,629 art works does that does that ever come 249 00:09:57,189 --> 00:09:52,939 to play in any of your investigations 250 00:09:59,590 --> 00:09:57,199 you don't retire to the FBI in 2008 I 251 00:10:02,350 --> 00:09:59,600 can't get involved with those cases at 252 00:10:03,610 --> 00:10:02,360 the time with the bureau apparently we 253 00:10:06,639 --> 00:10:03,620 didn't get involved in cases because 254 00:10:07,990 --> 00:10:06,649 those are not criminal cases when you're 255 00:10:09,610 --> 00:10:08,000 in law enforcement when you're talking 256 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:09,620 about the local police state police or 257 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:11,810 the feds well you know these cases have 258 00:10:16,569 --> 00:10:13,850 got to be criminal cases that they can 259 00:10:18,220 --> 00:10:16,579 look into and yeah I mean the round pegs 260 00:10:20,170 --> 00:10:18,230 got right into the round hole you have 261 00:10:23,590 --> 00:10:20,180 to build own a reasonable doubt the 262 00:10:25,300 --> 00:10:23,600 elements of a specific crime and and in 263 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:25,310 those situations those are in criminal 264 00:10:28,809 --> 00:10:27,170 cases anymore those are civil you know 265 00:10:31,329 --> 00:10:28,819 civil fights 266 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:31,339 well cessful generally speaking the 267 00:10:35,650 --> 00:10:32,930 government does not get involved in 268 00:10:38,019 --> 00:10:35,660 those it's it's between you know private 269 00:10:39,670 --> 00:10:38,029 parties I said a with Robert Wittman 270 00:10:41,470 --> 00:10:39,680 incorporated you know my company that I 271 00:10:42,759 --> 00:10:41,480 have I can get in all those cases and 272 00:10:45,670 --> 00:10:42,769 and do the research and due diligence 273 00:10:47,829 --> 00:10:45,680 well okay yeah I'd like to talk a little 274 00:10:51,370 --> 00:10:47,839 bit about your company a little later on 275 00:10:53,079 --> 00:10:51,380 what is the number once I don't know how 276 00:10:54,780 --> 00:10:53,089 to word this any different but what's 277 00:11:01,600 --> 00:10:54,790 the number one stupidest thing you ever 278 00:11:04,869 --> 00:11:01,610 saw a crook do well you know stupid is 279 00:11:08,889 --> 00:11:04,879 one thing III think number one worst 280 00:11:10,259 --> 00:11:08,899 things ever saw people do was about 20 281 00:11:13,210 --> 00:11:10,269 years ago there was a case in 282 00:11:14,620 --> 00:11:13,220 Philadelphia three individuals went to 283 00:11:17,570 --> 00:11:14,630 defend the gray matter which is a 284 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:17,580 historical site it was the this 285 00:11:21,350 --> 00:11:19,290 home of William Penn the founder of the 286 00:11:24,830 --> 00:11:21,360 Pennsylvania Colony he did there from 287 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:24,840 1683 to 1700 wonderful home it's been 288 00:11:28,580 --> 00:11:26,490 you know preserved a lot of his 289 00:11:29,930 --> 00:11:28,590 materials still there well these three 290 00:11:32,660 --> 00:11:29,940 went in desire they were going to steal 291 00:11:35,510 --> 00:11:32,670 you know antiques from the house in 292 00:11:37,190 --> 00:11:35,520 order to sell them at an auction no well 293 00:11:38,810 --> 00:11:37,200 it's that stupid beginning because you 294 00:11:40,250 --> 00:11:38,820 can you know it's identified maturity 295 00:11:42,590 --> 00:11:40,260 you and I both then you can't smell it 296 00:11:44,450 --> 00:11:42,600 but what they did was they got scared 297 00:11:46,580 --> 00:11:44,460 after there was so much press about the 298 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:46,590 burglary it was on the front pages of 299 00:11:50,540 --> 00:11:48,330 the newspapers all in the area that they 300 00:11:52,790 --> 00:11:50,550 took the material and they threw it into 301 00:11:54,770 --> 00:11:52,800 the Delaware River oh okay we're going 302 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:54,780 to hide it and get rid of it and we're 303 00:11:57,560 --> 00:11:55,290 talking about 304 00:12:01,310 --> 00:11:57,570 yeah material 300 years old owned by the 305 00:12:04,010 --> 00:12:01,320 family and I've got 37 or 38 pieces that 306 00:12:06,050 --> 00:12:04,020 were taken of those pieces we recovered 307 00:12:08,930 --> 00:12:06,060 32 at the bottom of the river well now 308 00:12:10,910 --> 00:12:08,940 we lost all the wooden pieces and can 309 00:12:12,830 --> 00:12:10,920 you imagine Martin these pieces from had 310 00:12:14,450 --> 00:12:12,840 survived three centuries and handed up 311 00:12:16,610 --> 00:12:14,460 you know going into the river and going 312 00:12:19,340 --> 00:12:16,620 away because just because unless you say 313 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:19,350 the stupidity yes that's an atrocity now 314 00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:22,050 I I was doing a lot of work in a major 315 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:25,620 art artists estate wall [\h__\h] 316 00:12:34,820 --> 00:12:30,330 his family in cognatic Maine years ago a 317 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:34,830 bunch of bikers stole about 30 of the 318 00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:36,210 clown paintings which sell up to a 319 00:12:42,290 --> 00:12:40,110 million dollars and when they were being 320 00:12:43,070 --> 00:12:42,300 sought after they stacked them in a pile 321 00:12:45,980 --> 00:12:43,080 and lit him on fire 322 00:12:47,510 --> 00:12:45,990 no you know and it is an atrocity 323 00:12:49,010 --> 00:12:47,520 because these things are you know when 324 00:12:52,730 --> 00:12:49,020 they're gone they're gone forever you 325 00:12:55,250 --> 00:12:52,740 know yeah yeah it's if the artist is 326 00:12:56,870 --> 00:12:55,260 pastor or whatever and they can't be 327 00:12:58,550 --> 00:12:56,880 replaced you know and they can't ever be 328 00:13:00,230 --> 00:12:58,560 done again you're right and this 329 00:13:01,610 --> 00:13:00,240 material is close cultural property and 330 00:13:03,890 --> 00:13:01,620 this was our the history of our country 331 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:03,900 yeah I like that phrase cultural 332 00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:06,450 property it just that one phrase kind of 333 00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:09,120 in capsules what exactly it is yeah 334 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:11,310 because it's like like history is gone 335 00:13:16,940 --> 00:13:14,250 you know right and these pieces belong 336 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:16,950 to all of us not just one museum or one 337 00:13:22,430 --> 00:13:19,290 historic home under everyone that's 338 00:13:23,900 --> 00:13:22,440 right we all lose something I I really 339 00:13:25,550 --> 00:13:23,910 felt bad about that the time and I 340 00:13:27,620 --> 00:13:25,560 always feel bad when I see that happen 341 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:27,630 because I can't look it this way you 342 00:13:31,070 --> 00:13:29,250 probably went to all the same ways that 343 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:31,080 you know we're all here too 344 00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:33,890 I say we all everyone's alive today okay 345 00:13:40,580 --> 00:13:35,760 one of us are going to get out of this 346 00:13:42,590 --> 00:13:40,590 alive at the end so it's our time and 347 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:42,600 it's our responsibility to protect this 348 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:44,250 material for our children and their 349 00:13:49,310 --> 00:13:46,650 grandchildren you know mm-hmm and if we 350 00:13:51,020 --> 00:13:49,320 don't you know our forefathers or 351 00:13:52,970 --> 00:13:51,030 whatnot have kept it for us they've been 352 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:52,980 successful and when something like this 353 00:13:57,500 --> 00:13:54,930 happens you know we lose a piece like 354 00:13:59,000 --> 00:13:57,510 that that's a failure for all of us yeah 355 00:14:01,220 --> 00:13:59,010 we all carry the blame for that because 356 00:14:04,310 --> 00:14:01,230 you know the future generations will not 357 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:04,320 be able to you know enjoy learn from and 358 00:14:09,170 --> 00:14:06,930 you know inherit this material that we 359 00:14:12,620 --> 00:14:09,180 lose that's right and this is gonna roll 360 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:12,630 me right into the next part is I did a 361 00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:15,330 podcast podcast number 31 with Ulrich 362 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:17,760 the boss or about the Gardner heist in 363 00:14:24,380 --> 00:14:20,370 the Isabella Stewart Gardner house case 364 00:14:26,420 --> 00:14:24,390 and that kind of exemplifies what we're 365 00:14:27,890 --> 00:14:26,430 talking about here those empty frames 366 00:14:30,530 --> 00:14:27,900 that are hanging in there where the 367 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:30,540 Rembrandt was and all those wonderful 368 00:14:35,810 --> 00:14:32,850 paintings that are gone first of all do 369 00:14:37,850 --> 00:14:35,820 you know Urich by chance oh we're sure 370 00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:37,860 yeah he's a reporter from mater 371 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:39,600 Washington DC in fact I think I had a 372 00:14:43,580 --> 00:14:41,130 there was a whole chapter in his book 373 00:14:45,230 --> 00:14:43,590 about me oh I'm sorry I read the book 374 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:45,240 too but it was quite a while ago it's a 375 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:48,690 great book and it has there been any 376 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:50,610 breakthrough at all that you're aware of 377 00:14:56,030 --> 00:14:53,250 on that on that case at this point I 378 00:14:58,790 --> 00:14:56,040 have not heard of anything new since I 379 00:15:03,320 --> 00:14:58,800 conducted an investigation from 2006 to 380 00:15:06,410 --> 00:15:03,330 2008 I was undercover in Madrid Paris 381 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:06,420 Marseille and Miami chasing the 382 00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:09,090 Rembrandt storm over the Sea of Galilee 383 00:15:14,420 --> 00:15:11,760 and the premiere concert from that 384 00:15:15,980 --> 00:15:14,430 collection Wow well when you say when 385 00:15:19,190 --> 00:15:15,990 you say undercover can you explain 386 00:15:21,470 --> 00:15:19,200 exactly what do you pose as a prominent 387 00:15:25,340 --> 00:15:21,480 art buyer or something how does that 388 00:15:27,290 --> 00:15:25,350 work well for 20 years from 1988 to 2008 389 00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:27,300 I was undercover somewhere in the world 390 00:15:32,420 --> 00:15:30,000 of orchid si and sometimes the prominent 391 00:15:34,610 --> 00:15:32,430 art buyers have done authenticator for 392 00:15:36,710 --> 00:15:34,620 the mob or other times of the professor 393 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:36,720 you know looking at our course sometimes 394 00:15:40,850 --> 00:15:38,850 it's just a buyer who had absolutely no 395 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:40,860 knowledge but was an easy time mark so 396 00:15:43,929 --> 00:15:42,930 depending on what the situation was but 397 00:15:47,229 --> 00:15:43,939 at that time I was 398 00:15:48,909 --> 00:15:47,239 cover as a heart buyer who was you know 399 00:15:50,469 --> 00:15:48,919 who had clients around the world who 400 00:15:53,349 --> 00:15:50,479 were interested in buying a specific 401 00:15:55,239 --> 00:15:53,359 kind of paintings mhm yeah we we got 402 00:15:57,099 --> 00:15:55,249 with then I think a few weeks of almost 403 00:15:59,199 --> 00:15:57,109 recovering those two paintings huh 404 00:16:02,379 --> 00:15:59,209 unfortunately didn't work out yeah i 405 00:16:04,869 --> 00:16:02,389 document that in my book priceless 406 00:16:07,779 --> 00:16:04,879 oh yes and by the way I'm going to have 407 00:16:09,909 --> 00:16:07,789 a link to that book up right underneath 408 00:16:12,189 --> 00:16:09,919 this podcast so anyone who's listening 409 00:16:14,199 --> 00:16:12,199 to this can go to my website and you'll 410 00:16:16,239 --> 00:16:14,209 see under this podcast a link to bring 411 00:16:19,329 --> 00:16:16,249 you directly to that book that came out 412 00:16:21,609 --> 00:16:19,339 in what 2010 yes it was actually a 413 00:16:26,229 --> 00:16:21,619 published by Random House on June 1st 414 00:16:28,989 --> 00:16:26,239 2010 it was it's a national bestseller 415 00:16:31,239 --> 00:16:28,999 and I talked about maybe around 15 416 00:16:33,489 --> 00:16:31,249 different cases I was involved with and 417 00:16:35,739 --> 00:16:33,499 with around the world and talk about 418 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:35,749 recoveries and the undercover operations 419 00:16:40,419 --> 00:16:37,970 and what into them mm-hmm now do you 420 00:16:41,529 --> 00:16:40,429 actually ever have I know this is kind 421 00:16:46,179 --> 00:16:41,539 of sound kind of corny but do you ever 422 00:16:47,889 --> 00:16:46,189 have like a briefcase full of cash okay 423 00:16:51,759 --> 00:16:47,899 yeah sure 424 00:16:54,219 --> 00:16:51,769 Wow I mean that's like the undercover 425 00:16:55,689 --> 00:16:54,229 right there's you have one case I talked 426 00:16:57,219 --> 00:16:55,699 about in the book where we recovered a 427 00:16:59,349 --> 00:16:57,229 thirty five million dollar Rembrandt 428 00:17:01,689 --> 00:16:59,359 that was stolen at gunpoint from the 429 00:17:05,980 --> 00:17:01,699 Swedish National Museum in Stockholm and 430 00:17:09,249 --> 00:17:05,990 I - we can two week weeks worth of 431 00:17:16,210 --> 00:17:09,259 meetings we negotiated a deal to buy the 432 00:17:17,829 --> 00:17:16,220 painting back for 250,000 Wow has your 433 00:17:20,499 --> 00:17:17,839 life been threatened while while you've 434 00:17:22,360 --> 00:17:20,509 been cracking any of these cases well 435 00:17:23,710 --> 00:17:22,370 you know anytime you work in law 436 00:17:25,869 --> 00:17:23,720 enforcement and you know you were 437 00:17:27,699 --> 00:17:25,879 dealing with people who are you know in 438 00:17:29,499 --> 00:17:27,709 these cases armed robbers and that 439 00:17:31,570 --> 00:17:29,509 Swedish cases individuals went into the 440 00:17:34,149 --> 00:17:31,580 museum with machine guns and basically 441 00:17:35,830 --> 00:17:34,159 stole three paintings at gunpoint and 442 00:17:36,759 --> 00:17:35,840 that happened many times you know 443 00:17:38,289 --> 00:17:36,769 whenever you're dealing with those 444 00:17:40,990 --> 00:17:38,299 people you always have to you know keep 445 00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:41,000 your wits about you and and you know be 446 00:17:44,769 --> 00:17:42,529 ready for whatever if it comes along 447 00:17:46,570 --> 00:17:44,779 I remember one one occasion we had just 448 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:46,580 recovered two Picasso's I had been 449 00:17:52,779 --> 00:17:49,250 stolen from the Picasso family in Paris 450 00:17:54,609 --> 00:17:52,789 and when we did the operation these 451 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:54,619 individuals were meeting was one of my 452 00:17:59,549 --> 00:17:56,770 quote buyers 453 00:18:01,980 --> 00:17:59,559 to sell the paintings and then they were 454 00:18:03,540 --> 00:18:01,990 arrested by the French police well the 455 00:18:04,890 --> 00:18:03,550 people who were involved in weren't too 456 00:18:07,650 --> 00:18:04,900 happy about and said they want to kill 457 00:18:09,210 --> 00:18:07,660 me so we had a meeting in Miami and that 458 00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:09,220 particular case had a gun in each pocket 459 00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:10,720 oh my god 460 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:12,670 Wow now when you say from Picasso's 461 00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:14,170 family was that the case where it was 462 00:18:19,799 --> 00:18:16,960 his granddaughter indeed and was that 463 00:18:22,049 --> 00:18:19,809 was that stolen from her by gunpoint 464 00:18:24,690 --> 00:18:22,059 no that was stolen our apartment she was 465 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:24,700 she was away the individual what he had 466 00:18:29,220 --> 00:18:27,250 done was he had an ex again a year 467 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:29,230 earlier doing some work in the apartment 468 00:18:33,810 --> 00:18:31,570 and he made a key oh he waited a year 469 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:33,820 for her to not be there for a good time 470 00:18:38,610 --> 00:18:35,890 to go and he stole the two paintings Wow 471 00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:38,620 so I was recently speaking to a curator 472 00:18:45,630 --> 00:18:41,440 at a museum which will remain unnamed 473 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:45,640 and he told me that his Museum and a 474 00:18:50,850 --> 00:18:47,770 number of museums are not insured 475 00:18:53,250 --> 00:18:50,860 because they can't afford it his and 476 00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:53,260 they also spend their money instead on 477 00:18:58,020 --> 00:18:55,510 beefing up security fire-prevention 478 00:19:04,740 --> 00:18:58,030 things like that what's what's the scoop 479 00:19:07,919 --> 00:19:04,750 on that you know have you have you heard 480 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:07,929 this before I think that that's possible 481 00:19:12,690 --> 00:19:09,130 I think it's irresponsible 482 00:19:15,150 --> 00:19:12,700 I think that having insurance is 483 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:15,160 something that every you know any 484 00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:17,410 collector or any collection of material 485 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:20,080 should be insured and and you know you 486 00:19:23,669 --> 00:19:22,090 don't have to insure the entire museum 487 00:19:25,590 --> 00:19:23,679 you don't have to insure every piece of 488 00:19:28,410 --> 00:19:25,600 the museum what you do is you have a 489 00:19:29,940 --> 00:19:28,420 basis all right I mean maybe it's a five 490 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:29,950 billion dollar policy and that's not 491 00:19:32,790 --> 00:19:30,850 that expensive 492 00:19:34,740 --> 00:19:32,800 okay I mean you can get something like 493 00:19:36,780 --> 00:19:34,750 that here a five million dollar policy 494 00:19:39,180 --> 00:19:36,790 or whatever it's 1 million dollar policy 495 00:19:40,410 --> 00:19:39,190 but with the idea that not everything in 496 00:19:42,570 --> 00:19:40,420 your museum is going to be stolen or 497 00:19:45,270 --> 00:19:42,580 destroyed at the same time mm-hm so if 498 00:19:46,980 --> 00:19:45,280 someone comes in and steals you know two 499 00:19:48,750 --> 00:19:46,990 paintings and they're worth whatever 500 00:19:50,430 --> 00:19:48,760 they are at least you have that basis to 501 00:19:52,049 --> 00:19:50,440 work with to make that insurance company 502 00:19:53,910 --> 00:19:52,059 your part during the investigation and 503 00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:53,920 trying to recover it so you don't have 504 00:19:58,169 --> 00:19:56,710 to have you know a billion dollars with 505 00:20:00,000 --> 00:19:58,179 your insurance you you just need enough 506 00:20:02,250 --> 00:20:00,010 to make the insurance company your 507 00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:02,260 partner to recover the material I see 508 00:20:07,169 --> 00:20:05,200 and and they work with your new business 509 00:20:08,610 --> 00:20:07,179 that you have now an insurance company 510 00:20:10,350 --> 00:20:08,620 will work with you on something like 511 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:10,360 that to recover 512 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:12,570 investigations for insurance companies 513 00:20:17,990 --> 00:20:14,890 the latest what we did was just a couple 514 00:20:20,490 --> 00:20:18,000 of months ago we were down in Houston a 515 00:20:22,050 --> 00:20:20,500 woman was in her home and there was a 516 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:22,060 home invasion robbery where a man went 517 00:20:25,410 --> 00:20:22,930 in with a gun 518 00:20:27,330 --> 00:20:25,420 basically stole a Renoir right off the 519 00:20:31,710 --> 00:20:27,340 wall didn't know what it was she told 520 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:31,720 that lady but home invasion robbery and 521 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:33,130 we got a call right away from the 522 00:20:35,970 --> 00:20:34,210 insurance company went down and 523 00:20:37,950 --> 00:20:35,980 conducted the investigation at this 524 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:37,960 point we have not recovered it but we're 525 00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:39,250 working on it 526 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:42,400 Wow well that's great and let's talk a 527 00:20:45,990 --> 00:20:43,930 little bit about your business it's 528 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:46,000 you're located in Pennsylvania but you 529 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:47,890 travel dude should still travel 530 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:49,650 worldwide oh absolutely 531 00:20:55,770 --> 00:20:51,730 in the last few years we've been to 532 00:20:58,970 --> 00:20:55,780 Paris you know Madrid Barcelona again 533 00:21:01,890 --> 00:20:58,980 Genoa Italy I working in London Romania 534 00:21:03,890 --> 00:21:01,900 chasing chasing these paintings is there 535 00:21:07,770 --> 00:21:03,900 any place in the world where more theft 536 00:21:10,170 --> 00:21:07,780 happens than other areas you know I 537 00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:10,180 think that it depends on the type of 538 00:21:13,530 --> 00:21:11,440 stuff that you're talking about it 539 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:13,540 depends on the material I mean of course 540 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:15,490 if you talk about looted artifacts you 541 00:21:21,330 --> 00:21:16,690 know those are coming from the source 542 00:21:23,130 --> 00:21:21,340 countries ma percepted that occurs quite 543 00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:23,140 often then you thought about paintings 544 00:21:27,570 --> 00:21:24,880 that side but it seems to be a lot of 545 00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:27,580 theft in Western Europe today and the 546 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:28,960 reason for that is because I think that 547 00:21:32,580 --> 00:21:30,610 the quality of security 548 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:32,590 in a lot of the museum's is a bit 549 00:21:36,180 --> 00:21:34,570 lacking and it's not because they don't 550 00:21:37,740 --> 00:21:36,190 want it it's because of the economic 551 00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:37,750 times and the fact that you know it's 552 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:39,910 very expensive but and usually that what 553 00:21:43,290 --> 00:21:41,770 happens is you know security is one of 554 00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:43,300 the first things that people start to 555 00:21:47,850 --> 00:21:45,670 cut mm-hmm and the reason for that is 556 00:21:49,290 --> 00:21:47,860 because some quote the wrong side of the 557 00:21:51,750 --> 00:21:49,300 ledger she doesn't bring money in 558 00:21:53,850 --> 00:21:51,760 supposedly it costs money you know so 559 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:53,860 what obviously might do is you don't say 560 00:21:58,230 --> 00:21:55,690 we have working guards and you know 561 00:22:00,120 --> 00:21:58,240 maybe we can make do with ten well what 562 00:22:02,010 --> 00:22:00,130 that does is it little lowers lowers 563 00:22:04,530 --> 00:22:02,020 your your security profile which makes 564 00:22:06,630 --> 00:22:04,540 you more apt to be a victim and it's up 565 00:22:10,110 --> 00:22:06,640 more you know you can something that's 566 00:22:12,450 --> 00:22:10,120 just so obvious a few weeks ago in 567 00:22:14,610 --> 00:22:12,460 Greece at the Olympia Museum you know 568 00:22:16,650 --> 00:22:14,620 they had cut the security group to 569 00:22:18,660 --> 00:22:16,660 nothing there was just one woman in the 570 00:22:20,190 --> 00:22:18,670 museum so a couple of guys went in they 571 00:22:22,830 --> 00:22:20,200 tied her up and still having more than 572 00:22:24,090 --> 00:22:22,840 40 items wow that just at gunpoint 573 00:22:26,850 --> 00:22:24,100 because they could 574 00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:26,860 yeah yeah do more thefts occur in 575 00:22:31,590 --> 00:22:29,710 museums and in private situations I 576 00:22:33,810 --> 00:22:31,600 think it's probably more you know I 577 00:22:35,730 --> 00:22:33,820 think the biggest manifests are not from 578 00:22:36,870 --> 00:22:35,740 museums because museums do have a 579 00:22:38,370 --> 00:22:36,880 certain amount of security that the 580 00:22:40,650 --> 00:22:38,380 biggest amount of thefts are from 581 00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:40,660 burglaries of private homes mm-hmm a lot 582 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:42,910 of that is not artwork okay I mean it's 583 00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:45,730 not you know what we think is it's now 584 00:22:51,570 --> 00:22:48,370 artwork but no I think that private 585 00:22:53,610 --> 00:22:51,580 homes probably but the vast majority out 586 00:22:57,120 --> 00:22:53,620 there now in the business that you have 587 00:22:59,700 --> 00:22:57,130 now do you also give people security 588 00:23:02,610 --> 00:22:59,710 ideas as far as protecting their value 589 00:23:05,580 --> 00:23:02,620 yeah we do a collection security site 590 00:23:07,409 --> 00:23:05,590 facility management survey and what 591 00:23:08,820 --> 00:23:07,419 we'll do is we'll go in we'll look at 592 00:23:10,740 --> 00:23:08,830 the security the layers of security 593 00:23:13,110 --> 00:23:10,750 whether I have from perimeter 594 00:23:15,419 --> 00:23:13,120 penetration electronic and then you know 595 00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:15,429 human and and we'll make sure that 596 00:23:18,930 --> 00:23:17,440 things are done as far as best practices 597 00:23:21,539 --> 00:23:18,940 are concerned in all those types of 598 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:21,549 situations also we do collection 599 00:23:25,470 --> 00:23:23,650 management if individuals don't know 600 00:23:27,779 --> 00:23:25,480 what they have or want to know what they 601 00:23:29,220 --> 00:23:27,789 have or you know people inherit things 602 00:23:30,419 --> 00:23:29,230 they don't realize they get these 603 00:23:32,270 --> 00:23:30,429 collections and they don't know what's 604 00:23:35,159 --> 00:23:32,280 in them you know we'll go and do that 605 00:23:36,810 --> 00:23:35,169 also do object ID for them as far as 606 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:36,820 identifications concern and create 607 00:23:41,430 --> 00:23:39,490 databases so yeah we do all that plus 608 00:23:44,159 --> 00:23:41,440 due diligence promenades research as far 609 00:23:46,289 --> 00:23:44,169 as background material and - and we'll 610 00:23:47,970 --> 00:23:46,299 also do theft mitigation reports which 611 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:47,980 you know if you want to sell something 612 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:49,210 you want to know is make sure it's not 613 00:23:52,980 --> 00:23:51,370 let's just don't anywhere we can do a 614 00:23:54,659 --> 00:23:52,990 report for you on that as well so we're 615 00:23:56,399 --> 00:23:54,669 involved in many different parts the 616 00:23:59,039 --> 00:23:56,409 only thing we don't do its appraisal 617 00:24:00,779 --> 00:23:59,049 uh-huh that sounds like you know I mean 618 00:24:02,250 --> 00:24:00,789 I've I've done a lot of research on 619 00:24:06,270 --> 00:24:02,260 provenance and things and that's that's 620 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:06,280 intense research sometimes so you know 621 00:24:11,190 --> 00:24:08,650 of course the higher profile PC user it 622 00:24:13,770 --> 00:24:11,200 usually is but when you get something 623 00:24:16,140 --> 00:24:13,780 that's still valuable that's sort of 624 00:24:18,270 --> 00:24:16,150 obscure sometimes you can't get too far 625 00:24:20,370 --> 00:24:18,280 as far as provenance goes right right 626 00:24:22,169 --> 00:24:20,380 well what we try to do is this would be 627 00:24:25,230 --> 00:24:22,179 I'll get I'll get somebody like you to 628 00:24:27,950 --> 00:24:25,240 do the back the ultimate background what 629 00:24:31,049 --> 00:24:27,960 we'll do is we'll check all the sources 630 00:24:32,820 --> 00:24:31,059 that are you know supposedly working 631 00:24:34,740 --> 00:24:32,830 from in other words yeah well I asked 632 00:24:36,990 --> 00:24:34,750 all the tough questions did you really 633 00:24:37,860 --> 00:24:37,000 get this we'll go we'll go you know pin 634 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:37,870 it down 635 00:24:42,029 --> 00:24:39,970 yeah what I mean is it's not so much the 636 00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:42,039 provenance as far as you know where it 637 00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:44,830 was in 1860 but as much as today if you 638 00:24:48,330 --> 00:24:46,480 bought it from this place then we're 639 00:24:50,850 --> 00:24:48,340 gonna go find that place and we're gonna 640 00:24:53,519 --> 00:24:50,860 take a picture of it look it up in the 641 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:53,529 you know in the in the files of the city 642 00:24:56,730 --> 00:24:54,970 of the county of the state to see who 643 00:24:58,140 --> 00:24:56,740 was there in renting wide and get a 644 00:25:00,269 --> 00:24:58,150 background report so then we'll go talk 645 00:25:02,539 --> 00:25:00,279 to everybody who was there so it's 646 00:25:05,010 --> 00:25:02,549 actually an investigation you know into 647 00:25:07,649 --> 00:25:05,020 where it came from and how far back we 648 00:25:10,830 --> 00:25:07,659 can go you know I was just at an auction 649 00:25:13,919 --> 00:25:10,840 two weeks ago and there was a painting 650 00:25:16,350 --> 00:25:13,929 that a person bought at a thrift store 651 00:25:21,060 --> 00:25:16,360 in Florida for $3 I'm not exaggerating 652 00:25:23,250 --> 00:25:21,070 and it just sold for $230,000 yeah 653 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:23,260 and when you get a situation like that 654 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:27,130 and and you kind of hit a brick wall 655 00:25:31,889 --> 00:25:30,730 don't you you know well yeah my first 656 00:25:34,409 --> 00:25:31,899 thought would be where did you get it 657 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:34,419 was the thrift store get it yeah you 658 00:25:37,860 --> 00:25:35,890 know I mean where do they buy from where 659 00:25:39,779 --> 00:25:37,870 they get it was it donated who donated 660 00:25:41,940 --> 00:25:39,789 do they have any records and if they 661 00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:41,950 don't well I mean you're gonna take this 662 00:25:45,690 --> 00:25:44,320 for baggage again that's right yeah know 663 00:25:48,419 --> 00:25:45,700 what I would do then is I do a 664 00:25:50,930 --> 00:25:48,429 self-report mitigation report to see if 665 00:25:53,220 --> 00:25:50,940 it's listed as stolen anywhere uh-huh 666 00:25:56,220 --> 00:25:53,230 what they're doing in a thrift shop for 667 00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:56,230 three dollars yeah exactly that does 668 00:26:00,210 --> 00:25:57,850 seem to happen where the family loses 669 00:26:03,210 --> 00:26:00,220 touch of what the values are of things 670 00:26:04,289 --> 00:26:03,220 you know that can happen I thought you 671 00:26:06,570 --> 00:26:04,299 know something no Martin that's 672 00:26:08,789 --> 00:26:06,580 something that that bothers me and I'm 673 00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:08,799 gonna say something about this because I 674 00:26:13,019 --> 00:26:11,350 need use or not use it but here's you 675 00:26:14,820 --> 00:26:13,029 know today's world and we watch 676 00:26:17,370 --> 00:26:14,830 television okay and it's all these 677 00:26:20,730 --> 00:26:17,380 proliferation of television shows like 678 00:26:22,799 --> 00:26:20,740 American Pickers and pawn shop or porn 679 00:26:24,299 --> 00:26:22,809 star whatever it's called or you know 680 00:26:26,669 --> 00:26:24,309 all these different shows and the whole 681 00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:26,679 background the whole idea of the show is 682 00:26:31,830 --> 00:26:30,370 to buy low and sell high mm-hmm about 683 00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:31,840 how much money you could have made you 684 00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:33,370 make off of somebody you know 685 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:35,200 yeah because quote you have more 686 00:26:41,580 --> 00:26:37,690 knowledge and they have well what that 687 00:26:44,430 --> 00:26:41,590 does I think it creates a feeling or you 688 00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:44,440 know an idea that this is okay to rip 689 00:26:47,909 --> 00:26:46,480 people off mm-hmm you see what I'm 690 00:26:49,230 --> 00:26:47,919 saying in other words yeah it's great 691 00:26:50,549 --> 00:26:49,240 you can go to a thrift shop but you have 692 00:26:51,450 --> 00:26:50,559 acknowledged to buy something for three 693 00:26:53,909 --> 00:26:51,460 dollars and so 694 00:26:55,830 --> 00:26:53,919 that's great but when you walk into 695 00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:55,840 someone's home and you say okay I'm 696 00:26:58,799 --> 00:26:57,610 gonna buy this from you for $10 because 697 00:27:01,230 --> 00:26:58,809 that's all it's worth and you go out and 698 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:01,240 sell it for 500 well you have an 699 00:27:05,519 --> 00:27:04,330 obligation I think ethically right you 700 00:27:07,710 --> 00:27:05,529 know there's no reason why you can't 701 00:27:10,350 --> 00:27:07,720 make it 20 percent or 25 percent profit 702 00:27:11,340 --> 00:27:10,360 but you know have it be a decent profit 703 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:11,350 you know there's nothing wrong with 704 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:13,450 bulls there's nothing wrong with bears 705 00:27:17,580 --> 00:27:16,210 but don't be a pig yeah no I'm 706 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:17,590 definitely keeping this in because I 707 00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:20,770 agree with you a hundred percent and you 708 00:27:23,850 --> 00:27:22,510 know of course if you if you buy it 709 00:27:26,639 --> 00:27:23,860 innocently you know one of the the 710 00:27:29,580 --> 00:27:26,649 biggest fines I ever had I didn't know 711 00:27:31,139 --> 00:27:29,590 what I was buying and you know I bought 712 00:27:33,750 --> 00:27:31,149 it in a situation where was an open 713 00:27:35,399 --> 00:27:33,760 market it was a an estate sale and open 714 00:27:36,510 --> 00:27:35,409 to everyone and I had no idea what the 715 00:27:39,090 --> 00:27:36,520 thing is I thought it was great 716 00:27:42,149 --> 00:27:39,100 and you know I was I was 18 years old 717 00:27:44,610 --> 00:27:42,159 and made made a lot of money and in that 718 00:27:50,519 --> 00:27:44,620 case I think it you know was innocent 719 00:27:53,250 --> 00:27:50,529 but there are you know these like these 720 00:27:54,930 --> 00:27:53,260 people in these shows yeah they're being 721 00:27:59,340 --> 00:27:54,940 a grand eyes for with the people off 722 00:28:01,590 --> 00:27:59,350 yeah you know and it's not a profit plus 723 00:28:02,130 --> 00:28:01,600 six hundred dollars you know that's what 724 00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:02,140 it's all about 725 00:28:05,639 --> 00:28:04,510 mm-hm and that to me is wrong I mean I 726 00:28:07,529 --> 00:28:05,649 just think that that's you know the 727 00:28:09,870 --> 00:28:07,539 wrong way of doing business I think that 728 00:28:12,899 --> 00:28:09,880 sense that's the wrong message well a 729 00:28:15,810 --> 00:28:12,909 little inside to that is American 730 00:28:17,370 --> 00:28:15,820 Pickers got a flood of letters had to do 731 00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:17,380 with the cash register I believe that 732 00:28:21,930 --> 00:28:19,360 was bought for really a low amount of 733 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:21,940 money and sold for a pretty good too 734 00:28:26,340 --> 00:28:24,010 much of a profit and they got a flood of 735 00:28:28,470 --> 00:28:26,350 letters so they had to change the format 736 00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:28,480 slightly of the show and show less 737 00:28:35,190 --> 00:28:34,720 profit okay yeah that's what it's all 738 00:28:38,490 --> 00:28:35,200 about 739 00:28:39,899 --> 00:28:38,500 yeah yeah and it's okay I think treasure 740 00:28:41,610 --> 00:28:39,909 hunting is great I think it's need to do 741 00:28:43,919 --> 00:28:41,620 that but there's another show coming out 742 00:28:47,580 --> 00:28:43,929 now called american diggers and once 743 00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:47,590 they show it was old-time wrestler or 744 00:28:52,620 --> 00:28:50,710 something because big stuff up out of 745 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:52,630 the ground and then sells it for these 746 00:28:56,159 --> 00:28:54,010 huge profits or something 747 00:28:57,930 --> 00:28:56,169 and again i think that sends out the 748 00:29:00,389 --> 00:28:57,940 wrong message because I hope you losers 749 00:29:03,539 --> 00:29:00,399 realize it's illegal to do that you know 750 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:03,549 on federal property on battlefields you 751 00:29:09,460 --> 00:29:04,490 know in 752 00:29:11,950 --> 00:29:09,470 Indian burial sites that's looting it's 753 00:29:13,210 --> 00:29:11,960 not you know it's not legal it's against 754 00:29:16,780 --> 00:29:13,220 the archaeological resource preservation 755 00:29:19,180 --> 00:29:16,790 these are federal crimes so I think that 756 00:29:20,890 --> 00:29:19,190 show that you know again that it grand 757 00:29:22,990 --> 00:29:20,900 eyes is that and says how great it is 758 00:29:24,940 --> 00:29:23,000 you know they really need to let people 759 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:24,950 know that's not you know it's not a good 760 00:29:28,330 --> 00:29:25,370 idea 761 00:29:31,299 --> 00:29:28,340 unless you know where you're going now I 762 00:29:33,430 --> 00:29:31,309 heard of a case you just mentioned 763 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:33,440 Indian burial ground I just heard of 764 00:29:37,299 --> 00:29:35,570 something a while back that came up 765 00:29:41,410 --> 00:29:37,309 about this is is that what you're 766 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:41,420 alluding to basically I mean I did I did 767 00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:43,610 a case in Santa Fe New Mexico and 768 00:29:47,799 --> 00:29:45,710 involving about $400,000 worth of 769 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:47,809 material that was being offered for sale 770 00:29:52,690 --> 00:29:50,450 against the North American graves with a 771 00:29:55,270 --> 00:29:52,700 repatriation act which is basically 772 00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:55,280 protection of you know tribal material 773 00:29:59,230 --> 00:29:57,530 and these individuals were selling this 774 00:30:00,610 --> 00:29:59,240 material for you know there's a sacred 775 00:30:02,049 --> 00:30:00,620 material come and came and came out of 776 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:02,059 the key was in the pueblos as and 777 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:03,770 whatnot and we're selling it to 778 00:30:06,820 --> 00:30:05,090 collectors and dealers and it's all 779 00:30:08,290 --> 00:30:06,830 illegal stuff I mean can't smell that 780 00:30:11,530 --> 00:30:08,300 material it's it's owned by the tribes 781 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:11,540 you know so there's a lot of cases 782 00:30:16,180 --> 00:30:14,210 involving that material well and I know 783 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:16,190 in Mexico for one thing there's a lot of 784 00:30:22,390 --> 00:30:20,330 the shaft tomb see pre-columbian burial 785 00:30:24,970 --> 00:30:22,400 figures that they're on the open market 786 00:30:31,180 --> 00:30:24,980 all over the place but that's uh that 787 00:30:34,150 --> 00:30:31,190 doesn't seem to be illegal and but 788 00:30:37,030 --> 00:30:34,160 there's so many pieces here that are 789 00:30:38,620 --> 00:30:37,040 already here but now you know we have a 790 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:38,630 treaty with Mexico which does not allow 791 00:30:43,630 --> 00:30:42,050 the importation of those materials hmm 792 00:30:45,700 --> 00:30:43,640 and all of those were dug up from 793 00:30:47,770 --> 00:30:45,710 farmers and they would sell them yeah 794 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:47,780 from whatever yeah well you know that's 795 00:30:51,250 --> 00:30:49,610 the thing I would and for your listeners 796 00:30:53,260 --> 00:30:51,260 who are into you know collections of 797 00:30:54,850 --> 00:30:53,270 Antiquities you know it's something that 798 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:54,860 you really had to be aware of because 799 00:30:58,450 --> 00:30:57,050 every year the United States signs new 800 00:31:00,340 --> 00:30:58,460 memorandums of understanding with 801 00:31:02,110 --> 00:31:00,350 different countries I think there's 802 00:31:04,210 --> 00:31:02,120 thirteen or fourteen now that you cannot 803 00:31:06,340 --> 00:31:04,220 import material from those countries so 804 00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:06,350 you know you have to be careful with it 805 00:31:10,750 --> 00:31:07,840 and know what you're doing before you 806 00:31:12,610 --> 00:31:10,760 get Navarro I think they just signed 807 00:31:18,070 --> 00:31:12,620 another treaty in December with Greece 808 00:31:20,049 --> 00:31:18,080 involving ancient coins really Wow 809 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:20,059 you can you name a number of a few other 810 00:31:25,690 --> 00:31:22,130 countries that this is our own place 811 00:31:30,549 --> 00:31:25,700 Thailand Guatemala 812 00:31:32,110 --> 00:31:30,559 Peru look at in China and adding China 813 00:31:33,460 --> 00:31:32,120 to it I don't think they've done that 814 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:33,470 quite yet but I think you're looking at 815 00:31:39,669 --> 00:31:37,970 it Greece Italy all those countries you 816 00:31:41,919 --> 00:31:39,679 know all those are source countries 817 00:31:48,220 --> 00:31:41,929 where this material is bad 818 00:31:49,509 --> 00:31:48,230 I imagine Egypt Egypt Yeah right right 819 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:49,519 sliding back to what we were talking 820 00:31:54,039 --> 00:31:52,250 about earlier the thieves you know how 821 00:31:55,750 --> 00:31:54,049 you you watched in the movies they 822 00:31:57,279 --> 00:31:55,760 always have all this high-tech stuff and 823 00:31:59,529 --> 00:31:57,289 somehow they have all the money to have 824 00:32:01,210 --> 00:31:59,539 all this high-tech stuff you know to 825 00:32:03,039 --> 00:32:01,220 steal the diamond out of the museum and 826 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:03,049 stuff like that have you ever seen a 827 00:32:07,570 --> 00:32:05,090 case where someone actually used any hi 828 00:32:10,149 --> 00:32:07,580 text there was one case a number of 829 00:32:12,970 --> 00:32:10,159 years ago in Vienna where individual 830 00:32:16,990 --> 00:32:12,980 went into the the State Museum install a 831 00:32:19,629 --> 00:32:17,000 golden statue called the the saltcellar 832 00:32:21,940 --> 00:32:19,639 by Julie knee and that individual didn't 833 00:32:24,159 --> 00:32:21,950 have information about how to cut or he 834 00:32:27,009 --> 00:32:24,169 was an alarm specialist so he did have a 835 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:27,019 way of silencing the alarms when he went 836 00:32:31,659 --> 00:32:29,690 in and he wasn't detected but other than 837 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:31,669 that usually it's just an armed robbery 838 00:32:37,570 --> 00:32:35,090 or it's a shoplifting you know I think 839 00:32:40,799 --> 00:32:37,580 where the most high-tech pieces I've 840 00:32:44,169 --> 00:32:40,809 seen in recent years was an exacto knife 841 00:32:46,450 --> 00:32:44,179 one bat dealer was using to cut maps out 842 00:32:47,529 --> 00:32:46,460 of the rare book library at the Beinecke 843 00:32:50,740 --> 00:32:47,539 library inhale 844 00:32:53,860 --> 00:32:50,750 so I mean usually it's pretty pretty 845 00:32:55,419 --> 00:32:53,870 low-tech stuff well you know I I did an 846 00:32:57,820 --> 00:32:55,429 appraisal years ago I think you'd find 847 00:33:00,460 --> 00:32:57,830 this interesting because I did an 848 00:33:02,980 --> 00:33:00,470 appraisal that the woman had a mansion 849 00:33:03,669 --> 00:33:02,990 in Pennsylvania that basically burned to 850 00:33:06,129 --> 00:33:03,679 the ground 851 00:33:10,629 --> 00:33:06,139 and it was an early mansion and in it 852 00:33:13,470 --> 00:33:10,639 she had a one of the well-known Gilbert 853 00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:13,480 Stuart paintings of George Washington 854 00:33:19,509 --> 00:33:16,880 and she said yes we lost that and I was 855 00:33:21,519 --> 00:33:19,519 in her basement doing an appraisal and I 856 00:33:22,810 --> 00:33:21,529 saw this frame I asked her what the 857 00:33:24,909 --> 00:33:22,820 frame was because it was an amazing 858 00:33:26,260 --> 00:33:24,919 frame very large one and and she said 859 00:33:30,669 --> 00:33:26,270 well that's what the Gilbert Stuart was 860 00:33:31,820 --> 00:33:30,679 in and I looked at it and the there was 861 00:33:36,789 --> 00:33:31,830 razor cut 862 00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:36,799 around the stretcher and smoke on the 863 00:33:42,110 --> 00:33:40,320 jagged edge of the canvas and I said you 864 00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:42,120 know what someone cut this painting out 865 00:33:48,799 --> 00:33:45,600 of the frame before the house burned 866 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:48,809 down and the woman started crying I mean 867 00:33:53,419 --> 00:33:51,330 she had no idea I just can't imagine how 868 00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:53,429 that could happen have you ever heard of 869 00:33:59,389 --> 00:33:55,110 a situation like that 870 00:34:00,830 --> 00:33:59,399 no but they find it she's never I was in 871 00:34:03,019 --> 00:34:00,840 touch with her a little while after this 872 00:34:05,659 --> 00:34:03,029 appraisal and asked you know what she 873 00:34:07,370 --> 00:34:05,669 did about this but as far as I know well 874 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:07,380 I don't know anything has ever happened 875 00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:09,330 I would think did that be pretty easier 876 00:34:14,119 --> 00:34:12,510 fine I mean if it's out there you know I 877 00:34:15,919 --> 00:34:14,129 don't know how many years ago was or 878 00:34:17,869 --> 00:34:15,929 whatever but I mean it should be 879 00:34:19,879 --> 00:34:17,879 reported so they can be added into the 880 00:34:21,409 --> 00:34:19,889 databases so that you know if it does 881 00:34:25,099 --> 00:34:21,419 come off or officer doesn't own for sale 882 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:25,109 we can get a I want to speak about 883 00:34:28,940 --> 00:34:26,490 auction do you have a lot of situations 884 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:28,950 where you've actually had to go to an 885 00:34:36,020 --> 00:34:31,530 auction of an upcoming article that was 886 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:36,030 to be auctioned and in confiscated with 887 00:34:39,589 --> 00:34:38,010 the bureau with the FBI on a number of 888 00:34:41,720 --> 00:34:39,599 occasions we stopped the auctions and 889 00:34:43,099 --> 00:34:41,730 and recovered material could pick about 890 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:43,109 three different occasions where we did 891 00:34:47,659 --> 00:34:46,050 that sure time in New York as well with 892 00:34:49,970 --> 00:34:47,669 Christie's or Sotheby's whatever there's 893 00:34:51,619 --> 00:34:49,980 these antiquities auctions and whatnot 894 00:34:53,869 --> 00:34:51,629 and when I say all I don't mean all 895 00:34:55,220 --> 00:34:53,879 maybe once or twice a year where you 896 00:34:57,589 --> 00:34:55,230 know countries will make a claim on 897 00:34:59,150 --> 00:34:57,599 something and then and then what happens 898 00:35:00,800 --> 00:34:59,160 is you know once the claim is made then 899 00:35:03,260 --> 00:35:00,810 the auction I mean the auction of that 900 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:03,270 specific item might be it might be held 901 00:35:08,270 --> 00:35:05,970 up you know or done until until it's 902 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:08,280 been you know identified and adjudicated 903 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:10,650 but the auction continues is just the 904 00:35:14,710 --> 00:35:12,810 one item comes off yes I had a situation 905 00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:14,720 where I had a really nice weather vane 906 00:35:19,910 --> 00:35:18,510 that was I ever ties everywhere and that 907 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:19,920 same thing happened it was a stolen 908 00:35:23,210 --> 00:35:21,570 weather vane I had no idea and the 909 00:35:26,690 --> 00:35:23,220 person that owned it had no idea he 910 00:35:30,620 --> 00:35:26,700 bought it at had a large fair you know 911 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:30,630 antique fair back I don't know how that 912 00:35:35,839 --> 00:35:33,690 ever panned out but he spent some money 913 00:35:36,970 --> 00:35:35,849 on it too I would tell your listeners I 914 00:35:39,260 --> 00:35:36,980 mean you know if you're gonna buy 915 00:35:40,970 --> 00:35:39,270 material that's you know it has any kind 916 00:35:43,190 --> 00:35:40,980 of substantial value you need to get 917 00:35:45,380 --> 00:35:43,200 good good provenance and good history on 918 00:35:47,210 --> 00:35:45,390 it and also make sure that the person 919 00:35:48,740 --> 00:35:47,220 from as legitimate and get their 920 00:35:50,660 --> 00:35:48,750 information look at the driver's license 921 00:35:53,839 --> 00:35:50,670 get their name and numbers because you 922 00:35:54,620 --> 00:35:53,849 never know you know yeah that's that's 923 00:35:57,620 --> 00:35:54,630 good advice 924 00:36:00,109 --> 00:35:57,630 are there ever high-profile thefts that 925 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:00,119 are just kept out of the news well you 926 00:36:03,799 --> 00:36:02,010 know I think that sometimes museums have 927 00:36:06,740 --> 00:36:03,809 this mistaken idea that they should not 928 00:36:09,140 --> 00:36:06,750 report and I think that's that's an 929 00:36:12,170 --> 00:36:09,150 older idea back in Nam in the 70s and 930 00:36:14,029 --> 00:36:12,180 80s and and before museums were loath to 931 00:36:15,470 --> 00:36:14,039 report missing items because they 932 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:15,480 thought that they were affect you know 933 00:36:20,029 --> 00:36:18,450 future the donations so that means if 934 00:36:21,829 --> 00:36:20,039 you and that type of thing and really 935 00:36:23,779 --> 00:36:21,839 bad publicity but I think today there's 936 00:36:26,420 --> 00:36:23,789 a whole sea change or ideas and that and 937 00:36:28,130 --> 00:36:26,430 the fact is you know if you don't report 938 00:36:30,890 --> 00:36:28,140 that you can't you can't get it back 939 00:36:32,690 --> 00:36:30,900 number one mmm it goes away secondly 940 00:36:35,299 --> 00:36:32,700 you're inviting the criminal to come 941 00:36:37,730 --> 00:36:35,309 back and do it again okay gonna get away 942 00:36:39,589 --> 00:36:37,740 with it and thirdly you know as far as 943 00:36:41,150 --> 00:36:39,599 due diligence is concerned the people 944 00:36:42,829 --> 00:36:41,160 who are in charge of the museum when in 945 00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:42,839 charge of the historic house or whatever 946 00:36:46,819 --> 00:36:45,599 may have some liability issues because 947 00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:46,829 they're not you know they're not they're 948 00:36:51,170 --> 00:36:48,510 not withholding their duties and doing 949 00:36:52,370 --> 00:36:51,180 it correctly so you know there's a lot 950 00:36:54,259 --> 00:36:52,380 of different ways of thinking about 951 00:36:56,210 --> 00:36:54,269 nowadays I think most of times most of 952 00:36:59,990 --> 00:36:56,220 these high-profile pieces do they're 953 00:37:03,140 --> 00:37:00,000 reported now do you yourself go into 954 00:37:05,779 --> 00:37:03,150 museums and and look at pieces and think 955 00:37:08,509 --> 00:37:05,789 well this could be taken this way this 956 00:37:10,309 --> 00:37:08,519 could be stolen that way no I never 957 00:37:11,660 --> 00:37:10,319 think of how pieces can be stolen I 958 00:37:14,779 --> 00:37:11,670 always think about how pieces can be 959 00:37:17,299 --> 00:37:14,789 better secured ah no I mean it's a 960 00:37:19,279 --> 00:37:17,309 different thought process it's more of 961 00:37:21,319 --> 00:37:19,289 you know I was just had a better you 962 00:37:23,210 --> 00:37:21,329 know a better hanger system or I wish 963 00:37:25,220 --> 00:37:23,220 these these bolts where this was bolted 964 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:25,230 you know to the to the to the wall or 965 00:37:29,420 --> 00:37:26,970 you know maybe that piece shouldn't 966 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:29,430 because so close to the door but you 967 00:37:32,870 --> 00:37:30,930 know I always think about how you know 968 00:37:34,460 --> 00:37:32,880 they can strengthen security hmm 969 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:34,470 well they must train you through the FBI 970 00:37:39,769 --> 00:37:36,930 how to think like a criminal or how a 971 00:37:41,769 --> 00:37:39,779 criminal thinks I should say well you 972 00:37:44,450 --> 00:37:41,779 know when we talk about art theft and 973 00:37:47,509 --> 00:37:44,460 art crime it's not about our history 974 00:37:49,309 --> 00:37:47,519 it's about the art business so you know 975 00:37:51,859 --> 00:37:49,319 having a business background in the 976 00:37:54,349 --> 00:37:51,869 auction galleries or in the art world is 977 00:37:56,749 --> 00:37:54,359 very helpful so it's all about how to 978 00:37:58,370 --> 00:37:56,759 make a deal in the art world now did you 979 00:37:58,820 --> 00:37:58,380 have any background with that at all 980 00:37:59,840 --> 00:37:58,830 yeah 981 00:38:03,650 --> 00:37:59,850 my parents were in the antiques business 982 00:38:05,270 --> 00:38:03,660 oh so I kind of grew up in to a certain 983 00:38:06,500 --> 00:38:05,280 degree and was actually working with my 984 00:38:09,020 --> 00:38:06,510 father you know 985 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:09,030 you know Asian antique shop on Howard 986 00:38:14,090 --> 00:38:10,890 Street in Baltimore which was now the 987 00:38:15,980 --> 00:38:14,100 the antique row of the city so he he 988 00:38:17,540 --> 00:38:15,990 always had a desire and always loved 989 00:38:19,970 --> 00:38:17,550 Asian antiques and he started a business 990 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:19,980 up and for a few years I would go out 991 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:22,530 help them on Saturdays or none and you 992 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:25,410 know you learned how to make a deal and 993 00:38:29,510 --> 00:38:27,690 that by the way that I'm sure you're 994 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:29,520 probably aware this but the Asian market 995 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:32,130 as strong as can be right now as far as 996 00:38:39,230 --> 00:38:36,570 Chinese goes yeah it sure has 997 00:38:40,580 --> 00:38:39,240 yeah one less we're about out of time 998 00:38:43,490 --> 00:38:40,590 here you know I feel like I could talk 999 00:38:46,430 --> 00:38:43,500 to you all day you mentioned earlier 1000 00:38:48,620 --> 00:38:46,440 that about somewhere around 10% of the 1001 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:48,630 items are not recovered and never 1002 00:38:52,970 --> 00:38:50,610 resurfaced what what would you have to 1003 00:38:57,380 --> 00:38:52,980 guess if you had to happens to those 1004 00:38:59,210 --> 00:38:57,390 items I think you destroyed oh yeah we 1005 00:39:00,980 --> 00:38:59,220 do lose pieces I mean I told you those 1006 00:39:02,750 --> 00:39:00,990 pieces that were stolen from the app and 1007 00:39:04,460 --> 00:39:02,760 it's very matter we're destroyed 1008 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:04,470 I think paintings sometimes still over 1009 00:39:08,660 --> 00:39:06,810 over years without properly cared for or 1010 00:39:10,270 --> 00:39:08,670 when they're cut out of frames I think 1011 00:39:12,590 --> 00:39:10,280 sometimes it does a lot of damage and 1012 00:39:15,050 --> 00:39:12,600 sometimes if I transported correctly so 1013 00:39:18,860 --> 00:39:15,060 I think that that is our percentage of 1014 00:39:20,270 --> 00:39:18,870 loss mm-hmm and that doesn't mean to say 1015 00:39:22,070 --> 00:39:20,280 that we're never gonna get them back it 1016 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:22,080 means it also means sometimes they're 1017 00:39:25,940 --> 00:39:23,970 distort away and they haven't you know 1018 00:39:27,470 --> 00:39:25,950 they haven't surfaced at this point so I 1019 00:39:28,610 --> 00:39:27,480 would think sometimes it takes a whole 1020 00:39:31,610 --> 00:39:28,620 generation you know before they come 1021 00:39:35,060 --> 00:39:31,620 back yeah well an ebay first began 1022 00:39:36,590 --> 00:39:35,070 around 1997 1998 somewhere around there 1023 00:39:39,710 --> 00:39:36,600 I bought a painting and I was actually 1024 00:39:43,820 --> 00:39:39,720 contacted by the FBI because the person 1025 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:43,830 that sold the painting I guess had sold 1026 00:39:48,650 --> 00:39:45,930 some fraudulent paintings does the Art 1027 00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:48,660 Crime Team keep an eye on eBay and other 1028 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:53,280 online resale I own it as much as they 1029 00:39:57,380 --> 00:39:55,050 you know they take complaints from it in 1030 00:39:58,910 --> 00:39:57,390 other words if someone I don't think 1031 00:40:00,800 --> 00:39:58,920 it's a proactive situation where they're 1032 00:40:02,180 --> 00:40:00,810 actually looking at it every day what 1033 00:40:03,410 --> 00:40:02,190 happens is so if someone makes a 1034 00:40:05,330 --> 00:40:03,420 complaint off of it 1035 00:40:07,300 --> 00:40:05,340 yeah they look at that and take that 1036 00:40:09,140 --> 00:40:07,310 seriously you know the biggest 1037 00:40:11,570 --> 00:40:09,150 complaints that come into the cyber 1038 00:40:11,970 --> 00:40:11,580 crime Center are ebay fraud so that's 1039 00:40:13,890 --> 00:40:11,980 the 1040 00:40:15,990 --> 00:40:13,900 number of complaints and it's not good 1041 00:40:17,580 --> 00:40:16,000 as any royalty day it's just some of the 1042 00:40:19,770 --> 00:40:17,590 material that goes on there it's not not 1043 00:40:21,150 --> 00:40:19,780 correct this has been really fascinating 1044 00:40:22,650 --> 00:40:21,160 all right Luther Martin thanks so much 1045 00:40:24,390 --> 00:40:22,660 for the opportunity to be on the show 1046 00:40:26,930 --> 00:40:24,400 and best of luck to you 1047 00:40:28,890 --> 00:40:26,940 so this is Martin Willis with Bob Witten 1048 00:40:30,540 --> 00:40:28,900 boy try it again 1049 00:40:41,460 --> 00:40:30,550 this is Martin Willis with Bob of 1050 00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:41,470 Whitman of Whitman I'm sorry I think I 1051 00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:43,359 got to keep that end and we're sigh and 1052 00:40:51,110 --> 00:40:56,980 [Music]